Flyfunston

Am I understanding this correctly?
As a Lifetime member of the USHPA and a former FF Club Officer, I can no longer participate on this forum because I can't Fly anymore?

Steve Urbach wrote:Am I understanding this correctly?
As a Lifetime member of the USHPA and a former FF Club Officer, I can no longer participate on this forum because I can't Fly anymore?

That's what it looks like Steve. While crvalley talks mumbo jumbo about his man cave, your club is being undermined by USHPA and their new PG President (Rich Hass). That's the information that's really being suppressed. Here are a few of the SOP "gems" passed by USHPA at the fall 2010 Board meeting (I know this isn't fun to read, but this is what they're doing):

USHPA SOP 06-01.04 Organizational Requirements wrote:C. Chapters are required to allow membership by all USHPA-rated pilots who are also qualified to fly at Chapter-controlled sites, without restrictions. All Chapter members must have full voting privileges.

F. Chapters and its officers are required to be goodwill ambassadors for USHPA and are expected to work within the USHPA committee system to support USHPA’s image and support USHPA programs. Chapters cannot on one hand participate in USHPA subsidized programs and on the other take actions which are detrimental to the USHPA and the sport. Examples of actions which may be detrimental are:

1. Any correspondence in any public media which is critical of USHPA’s programs and policies.
2. Any correspondence in any public media which is critical of other Chapters.
3. Any Club policy which is detrimental or causes harm to any USHPA program.

G. Chapters may not, as a matter of policy, negligently or willfully discriminate against pilots of one glider type, either hang glider or paraglider, or discriminate between pilots of equal pilot rating. Chapters must ensure that recreational flight privileges are made available to any and all qualified USHPA members meeting Chapter site requirements in a fair and equitable manner without discrimination. Note: This requirement does not indicate that a site cannot be hang gliding only or paragliding only. Glider specific sites are permissible for safety, land owner, and possibly other conditions.

Now they did get some "push back" on some of these issues from the membership, and some of them have been retracted. But the fact that they were passed in the first place tips their hand as to what they would like to slip through in the future (maybe when crvalley and his "tribe" are sleeping it off in their man cave).

But don't speak out about these problems, because that's embarrassing to some folks. Heaven forbid that anyone be embarrassed. It's much more important to sit silently while crvalley plays with his spears ... and USHPA gives us the shaft.

Bob Kuczewski
858-204-7499 ... call any time.

Some of the fringe flying sites that Bay Area pilots sometimes use rely on access to the discussion boards to get important information out to the flying community. Hat Creek Rim is one of those sites.

Turning your discussion board into a member only board is your prerogative. I would suggest, if you do make it members only, that there be club officers listed that would be willing to post for a non-member if that officer felt the info was noninflammatory and useful.


Phil

Big Bird wrote:Some of the fringe flying sites that Bay Area pilots sometimes use rely on access to the discussion boards to get important information out to the flying community. Hat Creek Rim is one of those sites.

Turning your discussion board into a member only board is your prerogative. I would suggest, if you do make it members only, that there be club officers listed that would be willing to post for a non-member if that officer felt the info was noninflammatory and useful.

Phil

Hi Phil,

You have a very valid point. In one of my prev posts I wrote: "In addition I'd like to see public forums where newbie’s can ask questions about getting started at Funston, list contact info for club officers and mentors, where members can post photos and videos, and of course an official announcement board for club events and notices, and a location for club minutes. I believe that the Board is on-board with this train of thought."

I think the "Announcement" forum would cover your concerns because club officers could post something for you. I would for instance, continue to submit notices of upcoming HAM exams and plans for the Funston Air Races. Someone from Hat Creek could submit items related to their site, like launch or landing issues, etc.

I believe that more ideas from more pilots will help the Board refine their lists. Someone might even suggest a completely different approach altogether. I'd like to hear any ideas that would serve the club and our flying community while at the same time maintain our upstanding image.

Bob please explain what FF having a members only forum has anything to do with USHPA

Funny thing is USHPA passes some things a lot of people didn't like, some pilots voiced their opinion in a civil, constructive manner and had the ruling reversed....too bad you piss people off so much nobody wants anything to do with you

Do hang gliding a favor a go away

flyin_canuck wrote:Bob please explain what FF having a members only forum has anything to do with USHPA

Urs is one of the Directors elected in part by members of your club. I am not a member of your club, but I have information that your members might want to hear about the issues that Urs has supported and opposed on the USHPA Board (the most obvious being open voting by Board members so you can see how he's voting). If I'm prohibited from mentioning this, then how will your members know that Urs hasn't supported open voting? Can you please direct me to any place on this forum where that's been shown to the members of your club?

flyin_canuck wrote:Funny thing is USHPA passes some things a lot of people didn't like, some pilots voiced their opinion in a civil, constructive manner and had the ruling reversed....too bad you piss people off so much nobody wants anything to do with you

Can you tell me what I've written to Rich Hass and the other Board members? If you don't know everything I've communicated to them, then how do you know that some of my efforts haven't been influential (whether they'll admit that or not)? Remember that the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club was affected just as much as your club was. We were vulnerable on the voting issue and the gag order as well. Don't you think we might have been lobbying to fix that? Do you think that just because you don't know what someone else has done, that means they've done nothing?

flyin_canuck wrote:Do hang gliding a favor a go away

I've already done hang gliding a big favor by bringing some of these issues to light. If that pisses people off, then that's on them. If you want me to go away, then work to fix some of these problems rather than sweeping them under the carpet. You can start with open voting by the USHPA Board so all members can see how their Directors are voting. Every Director's voting record should be available to all members just as they are with Congress. That would make them think twice before passing garbage like this.

Thanks in advance for your efforts on open voting. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Bob Kuczewski

Steve Rodrigues wrote:I'd like to hear any ideas that would serve the club and our flying community while at the same time maintain our upstanding image.

Hi Steve,

I'm having a hard time understanding where your upstanding image is being tarnished. Can you help me with some examples on this forum that you feel are tarnishing your club's image? I'm not saying it's not true, but I think some concrete examples might help me see the problem better. Thanks.

Also, if you're worried about your club's image, you might use some of the more advanced features of.php.htmlBB. You can, for example, use groups and ranks to designate forum members as club members and non-club members. These can be displayed on each post. So anyone looking at the forum will know whether "disreputable" posts were from your club members or not. That can be done while still allowing interaction between members and non-members on your forum.

But back to my main question, please let me know what you've seen on this forum that you think is inappropriate. Maybe a concrete example will help.

Thanks.
Bob Kuczewski

Um, let's see, oh I know, how about reading what you write!
Seriously dude, you have some good points but are pretty bad at socialization/implementation.
Just look how well FF does with the GGNRA and how bad your Hawks do at Torrey. That may sting, but something about what the FF are doing works, and all without your precious input.
You asked for it so there you go.

thermal pirate,

I was asked to explain what FF having a members-only forum had to do with USHPA. Did I explain that clearly enough or not? If not, then please ask what you don't understand about that explanation. Thanks.

thermal pirate wrote:Just look how well FF does with the GGNRA and how bad your Hawks do at Torrey. That may sting, but something about what the FF are doing works, and all without your precious input.
You asked for it so there you go.

Our Hawks are doing great at Torrey. We don't get any credit in some circles, but the people who really know what's going on recognize that we've been the force behind many of the positive changes there. Hang gliding is in the minority at Torrey, and so we're fighting an uphill battle (something you've not yet experienced at Funston). But if you want to know what I've done (with the help of the Torrey Hawks), I'll give you a list:

1. Got Dave Beardslee reinstated at Torrey after Jebb had banned him for life.
2. Got the Torrey Pines Soaring Council meeting again in 2007.
3. Got David Jebb's son Gabe recognized as having a conflict of interest on the Soaring Council.
4. Got David Jebb's choice for the Council (Doug Poirier) replaced.
5. Eventually got Brad Hall replaced on the Council by Ken Baier.
6. Removed David Jebb as Regional Director in Region 3 by defeating him with more votes than any other Director in that entire election.
7. Highly likely responsible for David Jebb leaving Torrey (he disappeared within days of losing the election).
8. Held monthly Torrey Hawks fly-ins for over 2 years demonstrating a continued hang gliding presence at that important site.
9. Brought together a large number of hang glider pilots (many who don't even like each other) for a common cause at Torrey.

Those are off the top of my head, and I'll stop before I have to use 2 digits to number them.

Look, if I had been ineffective, there wouldn't be so many people (like yourself) throwing stones at me. I've rattled the cages at the top, and that's why there are so many people bad-mouthing me. I put forth the Accountability Amendment because I was willing to stand behind my votes on the USHPA Board. No other Director - including Urs - has done that to this day.

Don't feel sorry that you asked me for that. I'm proud to stand on my record. Thanks for the opportunity to do so.

bobk wrote:Urs is one of the Directors elected in part by members of your club. I am not a member of your club, but I have information that your members might want to hear about the issues that Urs has supported and opposed on the USHPA Board (the most obvious being open voting by Board members so you can see how he's voting). If I'm prohibited from mentioning this, then how will your members know that Urs hasn't supported open voting? Can you please direct me to any place on this forum where that's been shown to the members of your club?

Bob, you have made your opinions about Urs, USHPA, and other things abundantly clear. You have done that on this board, and on many other boards in the past. You have also provided numerous links to your U.S. Hawks website, and the related forum on that site.

Most people are aware of your site now. If people are interested in hearing more about your club, or your issues with the USHPA, they will go to your site. If lots of people join your forum, good for you. If people are not going to your site/forum, that should be an indication to you that they are not interested.

Either way, you've made your point(s), and I see no reason for you to continue to use our forum as a soapbox for your agenda.

Hi Brian (zippidy),

I wish it were so simple. For example, how many people on this forum know Urs' voting record at USHPA? Does Urs publish it anywhere? What about the other twenty-some Directors? Does anyone know how they vote? Why isn't there a record showing each issue and how each of the Directors has voted?

Yet every year, the members are asked to "elect" Directors to run the club. How can members elect Directors without knowing how the Directors are voting for the members? This is the basis of all representative government, and USHPA has violated it.

I've come onto this forum to help build a better system - either within USHPA or outside of it. There are people who support that and people who oppose it. Why should the people who oppose it be able to silence those who support it? Given that USHPA is increasingly imposing its will on pilots, instructors, Chapters, and sites, it seems prudent to have these discussions anywhere there are pilots willing to listen. I think there are a few pilots at this site who are interested in the topic, and I don't see why they can't discuss it in this forum.

Sunshine, Brian. That's what we need.

Thanks for your time.
Bob Kuczewski

The more I read Bob Kuczewski's stuff the more I like and Trust him, and his politics.Truly a voice of reason.It's to bad he got a little uppity with Urs in the beginning. Urs has a bad affect on most people,and it's understandable.After hitting that pot hole it appears that Bob's got a new set of tires and is rolling along quite nicely.We nead Bob Kuczewski. Go Bob Marginal Mark

bobk wrote:Hi Brian (zippidy),

I wish it were so simple. For example, how many people on this forum know Urs' voting record at USHPA?
<...>
Bob Kuczewski

It's about brevity, Bob. You're being a nudnik, and it's cluttering the forum.

I agree with Zippidy - you made your point. I also happen to agree with the notion of having votes be on record, but your approach is past reasoned argument and into being a pest. This topic is "sucking the air out of the room" to the detriment of other, ongoing conversations. And lord knows there are enough of those happening right now too. That's what we're objecting to here.

Just to get the point across numerically, I went through your posts and picked out those with variations on the "USHPA doesn't tell members how people voted" theme. Below are the (many) links and a few quotes. By this time, anyone on any of these threads understands your basic notion and will either support or reject it. But repeating it further doesn't help - it annoys and hinders. So please either choose other Funston-related topics to discuss or back away from the keyboard.

Thanks,

Daniel

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we have no track record of how Directors vote on the Board

they don't publish how Directors vote

the most obvious being open voting by Board members so you can see how he's voting)

rights of the members to know how their own Directors are voting?

One of the biggest "meta problems" I see at USHPA is the lack of any voting record by the Board members

That's why they won't publish how they vote

Ditto Brian and Daniel.

Daniel Pifko wrote:It's about brevity, Bob. You're being a nudnik, and it's cluttering the forum.

I didn't know there was a requirement for anyone to read the entire forum. Forums are like a buffet. If I can find the roast beef that I like, why should I care if they're serving sushi on the next aisle? It's not about cluttering the forum. It's about people (like me) saying things that other people (like you) don't want to have said. Can we at least be that honest about the discussion?

Daniel Pifko wrote:I also happen to agree with the notion of having votes be on record

Then why haven't you joined me in requesting that of our Directors? ... <crickets>

It's interesting that you took the time to count how many times I've mentioned the voting issue, but you wouldn't take the time to post something like this:

Hi Urs,
You're our Regional Director, and we should know how you vote. Can you please report that to this forum? Also, would you please propose some kind of USHPA SOP or bylaw change so all members can see how their Directors are voting?
Thanks,
Your loyal supporter,
Daniel Pifko

or something like this:

Hi Dave Wills,
You're our Regional Director, USHPA VP, and Organization and Bylaws Chairman. I've heard that Bob Kuczewski proposed a bylaws amendment in your O&B committee that would have helped members find out how their Directors have voted. I also heard that he sent you several requests to get this on the agenda of your committee and you refused. When he brought it up at the committee meeting you refused to even allow the discussion. I think it's important for members to know how their Directors are voting, and I'm asking you to propose an SOP change or a bylaw change to implement that.
Thanks,
Your loyal supporter,
Daniel Pifko

Until I see that kind of action (and appropriate follow up), I know that my work here isn't done.

P.S. It's important to note that Dave Wills won by only a single vote. It's unfortunate that I wasn't on this forum during that election, or I might have revealed some of the other things that Dave Wills has done. That might have given us a different Regional Director and a different USHPA Vice President. You see, the stakes are much higher than one local club. They affect all of USHPA, and that's why it's important for this information to get to ALL members in ALL clubs. That's why I'm here, and that's also why I've structured the US Hawks as a single forum that integrates national discussions with local Chapter discussions. We're all pilots and we're going to need better communication if we want a better national association. And that brings me back on topic. Banning non-members from this forum would rob your own members of important information that might help them cast better votes. Why would your club want to do that? Why Daniel? Why Steve? Why?

bobk wrote: It's about people (like me) saying things others (like you) don't want to have said. How about if we can just be that honest with each other?

Ah, but you say that I say that you shouldn't say something that I don't want to be said. I didn't say that. I just don't want you to say what you're saying so much, especially since it interferes with what I actually do say you should be saying to get things done.

Then why haven't you joined me in requesting that of our Directors? ... <crickets>

Because I have shit to do and have chosen to contribute to the betterment of the world in other ways with my limited volunteer time (which you're using up, by the way. And I may charge you a beer for the flak I'm getting from the fam for writing this while on vacation). I also think asthma, tuberculosis and malaria should be cured.

It's interesting that you took the time to count how many times I've mentioned the voting issue, but you wouldn't take the time to post something like this:

Hi Urs,
You're our Regional Director, and we should know how you vote. Can you please report that to this forum? Also, would you please propose some kind of USHPA SOP or bylaw change so all members can see how their Directors are voting?
Thanks,
Your loyal supporter,
Daniel Pifko

Until I see something like that, I know my work here isn't done.

Maybe that's the difference between us. I believe in openness (e.g. publishing the clubhouse waiting list online) but think that public shaming is both self-aggrandizing and self-defeating. This is also a repeated flaw in your debating style - you assume I haven't done something because I haven't published it. Maybe I threatened Urs with an overheated flask of sake, demanding he implement a sunshine clause or face a lifetime of Japanese-cuisine-induced disfigurement. Could have happened.

Hi Daniel,

For a guy without much time, you seem to be spending it in an odd way.

Rather than asking Urs Kellenberger and Dave Wills to open up USHPA voting (which would take very little time to do), you're spending lots of time debating far less important issues with me.

Which is more important ... open voting by the USHPA board or how many posts I tack onto a flyfunston topic?

Now you did dangle the possibility that you've done that in private. If that's more than a tease, I'd be interested to see the results. But until there are some results, please don't expect people who care about open governance to sit on their hands.

Bob K.

The best solution for not continuing this BS is to simply stop replying!
I am now officially done with this thread and encourage others who feel the same to take a similar approach.
Notice down at the bottom left corner of the page is a button to unsubscribe from this topic. Bye bye!

Ooops, let me add one more thought.

Daniel, if you're serious about open voting by the USHPA Board, how about if you start a topic here on this forum about getting a petition together to request that? Then we'll be working together on something positive for the sport rather than bashing each other over who can and can't post.

Are you on board?

P.S. Maybe Steve will join us on that topic.

Steve Rodrigues wrote:The best solution for not continuing this BS is to simply stop replying!
I am now officially done with this thread and encourage others who feel the same to take a similar approach.
Notice down at the bottom left corner of the page is a button to unsubscribe from this topic. Bye bye!

Thanks, Steve. You're right - this topic jumped the shark a long time ago. I succumbed briefly.

Daniel Pifko wrote:

Steve Rodrigues wrote:The best solution for not continuing this BS is to simply stop replying!
I am now officially done with this thread and encourage others who feel the same to take a similar approach.
Notice down at the bottom left corner of the page is a button to unsubscribe from this topic. Bye bye!

Thanks, Steve. You're right - this topic jumped the shark a long time ago. I succumbed briefly.

I agree.....thanks Steve for pointing out the unsubscribe button...bye bye.

Mark Lilledahl wrote:The more I read Bob Kuczewski's stuff the more I like and Trust him, and his politics.Truly a voice of reason.
...
We nead Bob Kuczewski.

Steve Rodrigues wrote:Notice down at the bottom left corner of the page is a button to unsubscribe from this topic. Bye bye!

Jose wrote:thanks Steve for pointing out the unsubscribe button...bye bye.

The great thing about an open forum is that people can read what they want, and hide from what they don't want. The choice made by Steve and Jose seems to address the topic of this discussion quite well without the need to silence anyone.

Thanks for making that point Steve and Jose ... just in case you end up peeking here after all.

And thanks to you Mark. I catch a lot of flak for standing up to the folks at USHPA, and I really appreciate seeing someone speak out who understands what I'm trying to accomplish. Best wishes to you.

Bob Kuczewski